Comments on Childfree Clique: If Adoption Were Free...Wouldn't Breeders Still IV...

I lived in the UK for a decade and was irate about...

2011-05-14T00:15:58.654-07:00

I lived in the UK for a decade and was irate about this issue, The NHS is severely underfunded, so let's say a child that is already here and needed specialist care...there isn't enough money in the pot to deal with the problem adequately. So....instead we just make MORE babies with IVF? Often resulting in multiple births...so low birth-weights, autism, and developmental problems? That...wait for it... that need specialist care on the NHS... that isn't available? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Amen! Amen! Amen! I am not CF, but support people ...

2010-06-16T15:26:00.446-07:00

Amen! Amen! Amen! I am not CF, but support people who are thoughtful enough (and courageous enough!) to be so.
I am a SAHM of 4 and love my kids so much that I feel guilty passing judgment on couples who choose IVF. But, I must be honest. I think that it is a horrific, unethical procedure. And yes, I do think that if you can't concieve naturally, then you shouldn't force the issue. Fair or not, adoption should be their first and only choice. It is a brazen mix of ego, denial, selfishness, and "wanting what you can't have" that drives the compulsion to IVF. And it really gets my blood boiling when 1) I pay for IVF with my money, since it gets covered by their healthcare, we all share those costs! And when they think/say/ believe that they will/do love a child more because of their struggles! Puh-leeze!

I've been doing research on the whole thing (I...

2010-02-19T10:47:44.383-07:00

I've been doing research on the whole thing (IVF) and the women who blog and write about it to try and understand their motivation for doing so. It was always my opinion that people have children, to deal with their fears or immortality. After all, adding your genes to the gene pool is one way to achieve life after death, in a sense.
While I feel for these women, kind of, they write pretty pathetic things, esp. when they get defensive. Example include:

"Why should only infertile people adopt? Isn't it the responsibility of all of society?" The women complain about how people tell them "There's always adoption" and compare it to losing a baby through miscarriage. They suggest to counteract these adoption suggestions with asking those people who suggest it (who are probably only doing so in an attempt to shut them up about their fucking ovaries) with asking them why don't they adopt.... Well, maybe cause they are not trying to have kids and forking over thousands of dollars.

Next, were the women complaining about lower income, single women aborting baby after baby. Oh, so is that what single, unmarried women are??? Baby machines for the married middle class????? I missed the memo.

Another complaint was the quality of the children that are up for adoption and the mothers who bear them. Why should they have to care for some dark-skinned child from some 3rd world woman who can't seem to stop popping out kids. It's not their responsibility. So, one minute they are complaining about the single (white) women who opt for abortions and the next they are complaing about the darker women who are usually forced by circumstances (patriarchal societies, lack of medical care, religion and culture, lack of education) to bear numerous children. And while their complaints about the children borne to drug addicted mothers seems a bit more legit, its not like children of IVF seem to fare much better, with their increased rates of birth defects and learning disabilities.

Of course most of the women are extremely pro-life (note: when it comes to white babies). And that got me to start thinking about what exactly is IVF. Essentially, the making, freezing and eventual implantaion of embryos. Is an embryo not a life???? (According to the bible and all those religious pro-lifers) Isn't it unethical, then, to create embryos and freeze them hoping they might one day be place in a womb that can support it. After all, many of the embryos go unused. Also isn't it unethical to place and embryo in a uterus that will most likely be unable to support it? I just like how these women are so quick to judge and not question exactly what they are doing. And just thinking aloud....

I agree whole heartedly. I'm sorry but I am cu...

2010-02-18T15:59:53.470-07:00

I agree whole heartedly. I'm sorry but I am currently (and accidently) propogating the species and the whole situation has lead me to ponder in-depth bioethics and such. I never felt the need to have my own biological children and always wanted to adopt. Why bring children into this world when there are children who need a home????? I also wanted to adopt the "undesirable" children and older children because I am not "playing house" with somebody else's biological children. I am providing them with a loving, safe home. Well, my argument for adoption backfired on me when I got knocked up, being, why have an abortion when this child is here and needs a home. I'm adamantly pro-choice, don't get me wrong.
Anyway, I met a couple who used IVF to have two children. Both children have physical birth defects, learning, and social disorders. I guess they aren't happy with what they got because the children are raised by the nanny and the TV, as the parents cruise the internet, play computer games, and watch TV. I don't think either child knows exactly what a vegetable or a fruit is, unless it comes in a roll-up. Then they offered to adopt my child, as it will be the gender they want and will potentially look like them (because its a similar ethnic mix). I don't think so.

Hi there, great blog. Sadly I think your right...

2009-12-17T15:00:24.263-07:00

Hi there, great blog.

Sadly I think your right in a lot of cases though that even if free some people wouldn't adopt. But not all people who want children and can't or are having a hard time feel that way. My hubby and I are having a hard time getting preggers, but trying to adopt from the system is no cake walk either. We are a militay family and a lot of agencies and don't wish to work with a military family because of the risk of one of a parent deploying or the chance of frequent moves. We have tried several agencies and most are up front about not wanting to work with a military family, not even one with a home study and excellent references and so far this has cost us about $3700 for home studys, background checks, finger prints, application fees, etc, just to be rejected because my husband is military, even though we passed everything and have a great home study! ugh. A friend of mine and her husband, looked into IVF, but were told that it was an option that was not available to them due to her female problems, so they went on to try adoption. They looked into foster adoption and agencies all told them the costs for this type of adoption are $3000-$5000, that there is no guarantee and if they do not find a matching child or siblings set they will have to re-pay 3/4th of those fees again as well as a monthly fee to maintain and keep their file open, plus there are no refunds, now they briefly tried that option 2 times and both times either the birth mother or birth father, got their children back and they were out the money which I think cost them $9000 total for the 2 times. So after that failed and they were out that money they also looked into and decided on private US adoption, well first there are no refunds or guarantees with this either. In fact, they have been through 5 lawyers, 4 agencies and 7 birth mothers that changed their mind and either kept their babies or their parents kept the babies or the woman got back together with BF or husband and they kept the babies, so now they are out over $250,000.00! have a second mortgage on their house, spent IRA's and more and they still after 3 years have no child and are out a whole lot of money! Sadly adoption isn't always a sure thing or the best route either.

"I find that truly sickening that people real...

2009-12-05T21:24:43.079-07:00

"I find that truly sickening that people really do only want a cooing accessory, and not the entity which needs to be intelligently nurtured."

This, definitely. I'm a SAHM and CF-advocate. Weird combination, sure, but I really would like more people to know that they don't have to procreate just because. Too many people - children especially - are suffering because of the "basic human right" to spawn. It's sick.

Also, I can't stand IVF or sanctimonious "but you don't know the pain of infertility" excuses, either. Nobody ever died from not giving birth. I would retract my venom if these people would just admit that they're being selfish and stop pretending as if propagating their impaired genes is somehow saving the human race from dying out. Let's be honest, becoming a parent (intentionally) is pretty selfish. Period. The fact that these IVF-ers think they're better than or entitled because it's harder for them to conceive makes me gag. I've lost friends over my views. By the way, I'm pro-choice, so I won't try to vote it down or anything. Principles, you know. It still makes me sick.

Nice blog, by the way.

I'm pretty sure you don't get a refund if ...

2009-10-19T19:33:48.280-07:00

I'm pretty sure you don't get a refund if your adoption falls through. At least I've never heard of that.

My husband and I adopted our son at birth and it t...

2009-09-26T17:27:37.312-07:00

My husband and I adopted our son at birth and it turned out to be the best experience of our lives. We made the decision to adopt while we were dating (originally we wanted three children, one bio and two adopted). We married young (in early 20's) and started trying to conceive while in our late 20's. We were unsuccessful in making a baby from "scratch" but have no regrets that we adopted or that we gave biology a reasonable try.

Without boring you with the details, a drug my mother was given while pregnant with me left me with reproductive defects that made it difficult to get and stay pregnant. We pursued fertility treatments first because maternal age is a huge factor in the overall success. The treatments failed. We walked away disappointed that we wouldn't have the pregnancy experience but excited that we would move forward with our plans to adopt.

We chose a private adoption agency because we wanted to parent a child from birth. For those of you about to scream that we're selfish for not pursuing a child in the foster care system hear me out; our decision to spend $15,000+ to adopt a child from birth ensured that he would not go through the process of being abused, neglected, and eventually abandoned or forcibly removed from his biological parent(s) before being put into the foster care system and eventually up for adoption.

Private adoption doesn't forcibly remove a child from biological parents that would otherwise raise them in loving and competent homes. Private adoption simply gives the biological parent(s) the option of not terminating the pregnancy and choosing the parents they want for their child, at the financial expense of the adoptive parents. While it is expensive and foster care is free, have you really looked at what NOT paying the $15,000 would mean for the child? For us, the big incentive was that our son would only experience love and security from the moment he entered the world; how much would you pay to ensure that a child isn’t abused or neglected? In effect, private adoption, while expensive, is both proactive and responsible on the part of the biological and adoptive parents.

I agree that a child is not at fault for the circumstances he or she is born into. That said, putting the expectation on adoptive parents to reach into the foster care system and attempt to undo the damage that biological parents have done to these innocent children is unfair as well. My husband and I are not social workers, psychologists, or psychiatrists; we are simply two people who wanted to become parents.

Look, the fact that we have even one child in the foster care system tells me that as a society we’ve failed spectacularly. Every child deserves a loving home, a happy and secure childhood, and parents who feel it’s their privilege to love and raise a happy, balanced, and confident child. Since we can’t regulate who can have kids, how about we become proactive in gifting $15,000 to $20,000 to an adoption agency that will endeavor to match a baby that will need a home with waiting parents that would love to have that child. That $15,000 can buy you a mediocre car, start your retirement plan, give you a down payment on a house, or gift a human being the chance at a completely different life. There are lots of people out there that would make amazing parents, and yes, if we interject ourselves into the equation before abuse or neglect happen, there are lots of kids that can skip the foster care system altogether and go to loving homes the day they come into the world.

As for the IVF junkies … sadly enough history has shown us that vanity and stupidity have no limits.

Thanks for the post--my husband's cousin remar...

2009-09-08T20:19:21.616-07:00

Thanks for the post--my husband's cousin remarried and his younger wife had problems getting preggers so they spent MULTIPLE THOUSANDS of dollars on fertility and implanting procedures because she wanted "her own baby." Well, after giving herself months of hormone shots in the ass to keep her aging (40s) body from rejecting the fetus, which ended up being forced into existence with donor egg/sperm or both, they finally managed to get "their baby" (even though it's NOT theirs, genetically). ?? WTF !! Why is this OK but I'm "selfish" for not wanting children? Couldn't this couple have done more to help kids by donating those many thousands of dollars to programs to help poor kids, or our woefully underfunded educational system? How about adoption, if it's not of their genes anyway? I swear, the next time someone tells me I'm selfish for not procreating, or shoves a picture of this Frankenbaby in my face expecting me to OOH and AAH, I might just blow a gasket. Thank God for Reisling.

You know I was on a GLBT forum and someone asked i...

2009-09-08T01:34:44.930-07:00

You know I was on a GLBT forum and someone asked if they would ever eventually want children and whether they would adopt or do the surrogate thing. I couldn't believe how many of them not only were against adoption, but the mean things they said about parentless children! They said stuff like "I want a kid with MY dna not the scraps of some junkie!" I made a post telling them that those children never did anything wrong and that their only crime was being born to people who couldn't/wouldn't take proper care of them. I couldn't believe what they were saying. I'm so glad I'm not bringing an innocent life into this fucked up world.

MLO- Your comment was rejected for being sanctimon...

2009-09-06T14:27:27.251-07:00

MLO- Your comment was rejected for being sanctimonious. Statements like "I don't understand why childless by choice people would care..." are worthless to the conversation.

You made some plausible points but the whole holier than thou, "why do you guys care?" is what got you rejected. If you don't understand why we care, or think it's foolish that we are expressing opinions about it, why are you posting at all? To reprimand us for having an opinion on the subject or to make me feel bad for posting an observation?

Ugh. Give it a rest.

I'm a poster in the UK. Here adoption is essen...

2009-09-06T05:51:35.725-07:00

I'm a poster in the UK. Here adoption is essentially free in most cases-those which are not free are still very, very cheap compared to other countries. And in those cases where they may have to pay something (see below) the would be adopter may well be supported financially by the adoption agency concerned.

Local authority social services adoption work who carry out most of the UK adoption services do this free of charge for children being adopted within the UK. If someone wants to adopt a child from abroad then they may be charged for the local authority to do a home study (if the adoption agency requires the prospective adoptees to have one).
But still adoption is something that wannabee breeders ignore. But then again, here they can get free IVF-we love to pander to their egotistical desires to have themselves a mini-me. You might get fewer IVF attempts if they had to pay for it. But whether that would mean more adoption I don't know. I suspect not. Because it's not about the children. It's about breeders in their selfish glory!

Not to sound - I don't know, crass? but - if &...

2009-09-03T11:00:15.150-07:00

Not to sound - I don't know, crass? but - if "not knowing what you're getting" is really an issue, then adoption really is the best route. If you're set to adopt someone's baby and it turns out there's something really wrong with it you can always change your mind and not go through with the deal.

I'm just saying... (not a valid reason if you ask me)

Yes, I, too, believe that even if adoption were fr...

2009-09-01T03:36:32.736-07:00

Yes, I, too, believe that even if adoption were free, people would still shell out big bucks for IVF (like my co-worker and her husband just did). It's unbelieveably narcissistic and egomaniacal, although they'd never admit it. And yet some yahoo wrote a letter to the editor in our local paper calling childfree people "selfish". Yeah, right!

Also agree wholeheartedly with Dorian Gray's comment above regarding people wanting a baby....but not a child or a teenager. These are the same type of people who, as college freshman, will adopt a Great Dane puppy and then abuse or neglect it because it gets "too big" and out of their control.

Oh, and of the people I know who have gone through IVF, the children have been born with a lot of complications: autism, developmental disabilities (both physical and mental). (Not just because of the IVF, but the advanced age of the parents). Yet they didn't want to adopt because they "wouldn't know what they were getting". Isn't it a safer bet to adopt?

I've learned something new today: you pay for ...

2009-08-28T06:03:19.578-07:00

I've learned something new today: you pay for adoption in the US. It's not like that in Britain, adoptions go through the local councils and are funded by the taxpayer. It's the same pot of cash put aside for local social welfare such as care and foster homes.

You would think that as adoption costs nothing at the point of use in Britain, that more people would adopt than use IVF? Well no, as they're now getting IVF for free it would appear not. And if they use up their allowance for IVF on the NHS people are more than willing to piss away £15,000 (that's around $25,000 at today's exchange rate) for one round of IVF than they are to adopt for nothing. It makes me feel sick to realise how selfish people are that they MUST HAVE a baby of THEIR OWN! Also, not just that it must be their DNA, but it must be A BABY.

No-one wants a "Child" anymore, everyone wants a "Baby". They then do nothing but bitch about the kid once it gets to age 2 and beyond. I find that truly sickening that people really do only want a cooing accessory, and not the entity which needs to be intelligently nurtured.

there is hope though: a friend of my mother's ...

2009-08-28T00:58:55.091-07:00

there is hope though: a friend of my mother's did the same financial math as you did, and was levelheaded enough to pick the adoption route... twice. She said: why force myself through IVF (which is no cakewalk with all the hormone treatments and such) with no guaranteed results, when there are plenty of babies who are ALREADY HERE?! She and her husband are white and both adopted kids are black, no fucking problem. A few years later they conceived a child of their own (oops, guess her ovaries weren't dead after all XD ) and they treat it no differently. The girl is now five and a few weeks ago, she covered her entire face with black shoepolish because she wanted to look more like her older brothers, lol! XD

Ugh, this kind of shit irritates me to no end. And...

2009-08-27T22:21:24.448-07:00

Ugh, this kind of shit irritates me to no end. And I bet you 99% of these baby rabies IVFers are against gay marriage because two people of the same sex isn't "natural". But if your heterosexual self can't conceive it's cool to let science intervene then. I sincerely wish upon them no success, and hope they waste all their time and money.

My coworker has a daughter and keeps trying for a ...

2009-08-27T19:55:22.228-07:00

My coworker has a daughter and keeps trying for a son. I don't know the specifics, but apparently her doctor said she can't conceive. She's uber-Christian and doesn't believe the doctors, because God is still in the miracle business. She believes that doctors aren't always right and with prayer and persistence, she will conceive a boy.

Now, I'm Christian too and agree that miracles happen, but I wonder why her Christian-ness hasn't moved her to adoption? Perhaps the reason she isn't conceiving is because God already has an unloved little boy waiting for a loving home. I still don't have the oomph to bring this up to her however (though she gets on me occasionally for not wanting kids...)

Honestly, I think that while it may be true that a...

2009-08-27T14:59:16.490-07:00

Honestly, I think that while it may be true that a round of IVF is cheaper than adoption, people who say they are doing it for that reason actually want a biological child but are just saying that. It kind of sounds "better."

It depends on whether there is medical insurance c...

2009-08-27T11:45:28.429-07:00

It depends on whether there is medical insurance coverage too. Some people have IVF coverage in their package so it makes sense to give it a shot if they'll only be paying a couple/few grand out of pocket if it works. And if it doesn't, then they can move on to the bigger buck adoption or just give up on the whole headache!
(Side note: at least half the time it's not the woman with a problem preventing her from "breeding naturally", it's her partner. That can be a hard pill to swallow and can take a while to accept if one was brought up in this sickenly pronatalist culture that taught her that having babies is what she is supposed to do! Unfortunately it takes a while for some of these women are able to break free and deprogram - if they do at all. This is another reason why it's so important for the childfree lifestyle/message to get exposure! end side note)

I think it is really sad that so many agencies charge so much for adoption. Maybe more people would seriously pursue it rather than trying to make their own if there weren't so many stories out there about how much it wound up costing AND the horror stories about birth mothers changing their minds before their time was up, desperate people getting swindled or just attachement disorder or other emotional problems with the kids. These issues most likely aren't as common as it sounds but you know how it goes - the bad stories are much more likely to be remembered (and feared, thus dissuading people from the option).

Thank you for speaking the truth. All I ever hear ...

2009-08-27T07:17:39.567-07:00

Thank you for speaking the truth. All I ever hear is I want my own baby not someone else’s baby. I have a friend who worked as a case worker for an adoption agency and she could not get anyone to adopt black babies. It was awful. Plus it is much cheaper to adopt a black baby. Who knew color had a price. I have a boss who adopted 2 kids from Africa 7 years ago, they were 1 and 14 when they were adopted, and the older one is now in and out of rehab and can’t function on her own. What the hell? I have another friend who spent well over $50,000.00 on IVF and still no baby! I thank God everyday for not giving me any desire to have children...it is a nightmare!!!

"IVF is cheaper than adoption so we're go...

2009-08-27T06:35:38.328-07:00

"IVF is cheaper than adoption so we're going with that."

If the cost is that much of a concern, maybe this is NOT a good time to have a kid. Sheesh!

Also, I agree that these breeders will do ANYTHING to have their very own DNA replicant...even though their DNA is fucked up enough to not allow them to breed naturally.

It's ridiculous and selfish. As you said, if someone wants to have kids in their life so badly, how about taking in foster kids? Or perhaps becoming a Big Brother/Big Sister? It doesn't cost anything to do this, to be there for a kid that's already here, who needs a positive influence.

I don't like IVF, because most of these breeders end up having Hugh Jass litters, like Octo-Mom and Jon & Kate.

I have a lot of respect for parents who choose to adopt kids of a different race and/or ethnicity than their own, and even more respect for those who are willing to take on disabled kids. I know a woman (white) who adopted two bi-racial children, both of who were born to the same crack-whore moo, and those girls are now very much loved. One of them is developmentally disabled due to her moo being on crack. But she is accepted, loved, and cared for. It CAN be done!

I totally agree with your observation about free a...

2009-08-27T06:22:15.981-07:00

I totally agree with your observation about free adoption vs. IVF - and the Walmart comment is tragically true. My blood just boils when people who "just want a baby" look horrified at the suggestion that they adopt an at-risk baby, but then call CF people "selfish".

I totally agree. They desperately want a child, b...

2009-08-27T00:32:59.571-07:00

I totally agree.

They desperately want a child, but it HAS to be their DNA replica. Apparently their DNA is SOOOOOO superior to everyone else's.

So instead of saving a child from a life jumping from foster home to foster home and then turfed out on the street at 18, they add to the overpopulation problem at any cost (and believe me, that $15K is only the beginning if they conceive).

That my friends, is as selfish as it gets.